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	<title>Comments on: Kaine proposes tax elimination for working poor, other budget amendments</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/</link>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-2/#comment-22529</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:26:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-22529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Vivian, according to the documents you linked to above (Table 3.1), the top 1% earn about 7% of the total income, not 20%.  That averages out to 23% of their AGI, which is more than any other group pays.

Now, where do the corporations get the money to pay the taxes?  The money either comes from the owners in lost profits, and so should be included in calculating their tax burden, or it comes from the customers in higher prices, in which case you should favor the repeal of those taxes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vivian, according to the documents you linked to above (Table 3.1), the top 1% earn about 7% of the total income, not 20%.  That averages out to 23% of their AGI, which is more than any other group pays.</p>
<p>Now, where do the corporations get the money to pay the taxes?  The money either comes from the owners in lost profits, and so should be included in calculating their tax burden, or it comes from the customers in higher prices, in which case you should favor the repeal of those taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: vjp</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-2/#comment-22055</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vjp]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-22055</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The top 1% earn 20% of the money, so paying 15% of the taxes means they ain&#039;t paying their share :)

Corporate taxes are NOT paid by the owners. They are paid by the corporation (C Corp). If a corporation is an  S Corp, then the corporation pays no taxes but the shareholder pays it all as income tax and is included in the tables I linked.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The top 1% earn 20% of the money, so paying 15% of the taxes means they ain&#8217;t paying their share <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Corporate taxes are NOT paid by the owners. They are paid by the corporation (C Corp). If a corporation is an  S Corp, then the corporation pays no taxes but the shareholder pays it all as income tax and is included in the tables I linked.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-22048</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-22048</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, that&#039;s the top 15%.  My mistake.  Unfortunately, the break-down is very coarse.  The top 1% pay 15% of the personal income taxes, and the top 7% pay 37%.

In any case, that&#039;s only PERSONAL income taxes.  Since, you say, corporate taxes are paid by the owners, and not by the customers, you must also include corporate taxes in their burden.  If you do not, then the money for corporate taxes must come from the customers, and so you would advocate the repeal of such taxes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, that&#8217;s the top 15%.  My mistake.  Unfortunately, the break-down is very coarse.  The top 1% pay 15% of the personal income taxes, and the top 7% pay 37%.</p>
<p>In any case, that&#8217;s only PERSONAL income taxes.  Since, you say, corporate taxes are paid by the owners, and not by the customers, you must also include corporate taxes in their burden.  If you do not, then the money for corporate taxes must come from the customers, and so you would advocate the repeal of such taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: vjp</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-21791</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vjp]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Dec 2006 02:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-21791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jack - that&#039;s BS. Look at the IRS &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html#_grp3&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;statistics&lt;/a&gt;. The most recent year available (2004) shows that total tax generated was $383,068,983. To get to 50% of that number, you have to go all the way into the AGI category of $75,000 to $100,000. Hardly the &quot;top 5%.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack &#8211; that&#8217;s BS. Look at the IRS <a href="http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html#_grp3" rel="nofollow">statistics</a>. The most recent year available (2004) shows that total tax generated was $383,068,983. To get to 50% of that number, you have to go all the way into the AGI category of $75,000 to $100,000. Hardly the &#8220;top 5%.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-21787</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Dec 2006 01:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-21787</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, that explains why the top 5% pay about 50% of the taxes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that explains why the top 5% pay about 50% of the taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: vjp</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-21638</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vjp]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-21638</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not sure where you are getting the 10% or the $330 from. The reduction is 3% of the amount of AGI in excess of $149,950. (AGI, by the way, is adjusted gross income, which means gross less certain deductions.) 

There is no punishment of the working poor. They, like everybody, gets the benefit of the standard deduction. For a married couple, that is $10,000 (for 2005). Remember, people who itemize really only get the benefit of the amount &lt;b&gt;over&lt;/b&gt; the standard deduction. The ever-increasing standard deduction is resulting in fewer and fewer people being able to itemize. In effect the government is giving you a tax deduction for more than you have expenses for.

And it is relevant to mention that higher income taxpayers lose their exemptions. Most people who are unaware of the loss of itemized deductions are equally unaware of the loss of exemptions. Any calculation of tax has to take &lt;b&gt;all&lt;/b&gt; relevant tax law into consideration.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure where you are getting the 10% or the $330 from. The reduction is 3% of the amount of AGI in excess of $149,950. (AGI, by the way, is adjusted gross income, which means gross less certain deductions.) </p>
<p>There is no punishment of the working poor. They, like everybody, gets the benefit of the standard deduction. For a married couple, that is $10,000 (for 2005). Remember, people who itemize really only get the benefit of the amount <b>over</b> the standard deduction. The ever-increasing standard deduction is resulting in fewer and fewer people being able to itemize. In effect the government is giving you a tax deduction for more than you have expenses for.</p>
<p>And it is relevant to mention that higher income taxpayers lose their exemptions. Most people who are unaware of the loss of itemized deductions are equally unaware of the loss of exemptions. Any calculation of tax has to take <b>all</b> relevant tax law into consideration.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-21612</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Dec 2006 02:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-21612</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah, I see &quot;Itemized Deductions Worksheet—Line 28,&quot; which reduces deductions.  A couple making $200,500 (AGI) would see a 10% reduction in his deductible contributions.  So, being in the 33% bracket, they would lose $330 of tax on charitable contributions totalling $10,000.

I really do not see why you must punish the working poor, just to avoid having someone get back some of the money he contributes to charity.  Do we not want to encourage such giving?


I was aware of the loss of personal exemptions above certain income levels, but I do not see the relevance to the subject at hand.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, I see &#8220;Itemized Deductions Worksheet—Line 28,&#8221; which reduces deductions.  A couple making $200,500 (AGI) would see a 10% reduction in his deductible contributions.  So, being in the 33% bracket, they would lose $330 of tax on charitable contributions totalling $10,000.</p>
<p>I really do not see why you must punish the working poor, just to avoid having someone get back some of the money he contributes to charity.  Do we not want to encourage such giving?</p>
<p>I was aware of the loss of personal exemptions above certain income levels, but I do not see the relevance to the subject at hand.</p>
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		<title>By: vjp</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-21602</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vjp]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Dec 2006 01:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-21602</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am not arguing that the working poor don&#039;t give a larger percentage. But a larger percentage of a smaller amount (note the 10% taxable income cutoff above) &lt;b&gt;still&lt;/b&gt; results in a smaller dollar amount. 

As for the loss of itemized deductions - that is simply a part of the income tax calculation. (AMT is a totally different tax calculation, parallel to the income tax calculation and only applicable in certain circumstances.) Try looking at the Schedule A instructions, which is the appropriate schedule for itemized deductions ;)

(I assume since you are unaware that there is a loss of itemized deductions above certain AGI limits, you are also unaware that there is a loss of the deduction for personal exemptions above certain limits.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not arguing that the working poor don&#8217;t give a larger percentage. But a larger percentage of a smaller amount (note the 10% taxable income cutoff above) <b>still</b> results in a smaller dollar amount. </p>
<p>As for the loss of itemized deductions &#8211; that is simply a part of the income tax calculation. (AMT is a totally different tax calculation, parallel to the income tax calculation and only applicable in certain circumstances.) Try looking at the Schedule A instructions, which is the appropriate schedule for itemized deductions <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>(I assume since you are unaware that there is a loss of itemized deductions above certain AGI limits, you are also unaware that there is a loss of the deduction for personal exemptions above certain limits.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-21597</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Dec 2006 01:24:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-21597</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First, let it be noted that the working poor give a higher percentage of their income to charity than any other economic group.

I was not aware that one lost the ability to deduct charitable contributions above a certain level.  (The $149,950 figure you quote is, I assume, the cut-off for the Alternative Minimum Tax?)  Some deductions are lost in the AMT, but I do not see that charitable contributions are in that list (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i6251.pdf).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, let it be noted that the working poor give a higher percentage of their income to charity than any other economic group.</p>
<p>I was not aware that one lost the ability to deduct charitable contributions above a certain level.  (The $149,950 figure you quote is, I assume, the cut-off for the Alternative Minimum Tax?)  Some deductions are lost in the AMT, but I do not see that charitable contributions are in that list (<a href="http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i6251.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i6251.pdf</a>).</p>
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		<title>By: vjp</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-21460</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vjp]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:23:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-21460</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Where your argument fails is assuming that both people make the same contribution, which would not be the case, especially for a refundable credit. In 2005, a couple&#039;s taxable income had to be less than $14,600 in order to qualify for the 10% bracket. With taxable income that low, they would not be making much in contributions, now would they? So the boom is to the higher income taxpayers. 

This is even more critical for those taxpayers who lose their itemized deductions because their income exceeds certain limits. For 2005, that limit was AGI of $145,950, which, by the way, is nowhere near the income required to be in the 35% tax bracket ($326,450 for 2005 for joint returns). So it is simplistic to say that someone in the 35% bracket now receives a tax reduction of 35% for each dollar contributed, because that is absolutely not the case. 

That&#039;s why such a credit would have to be AGI-limited; otherwise, you are giving away more money to the higher income taxpayers than they would have otherwise received.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where your argument fails is assuming that both people make the same contribution, which would not be the case, especially for a refundable credit. In 2005, a couple&#8217;s taxable income had to be less than $14,600 in order to qualify for the 10% bracket. With taxable income that low, they would not be making much in contributions, now would they? So the boom is to the higher income taxpayers. </p>
<p>This is even more critical for those taxpayers who lose their itemized deductions because their income exceeds certain limits. For 2005, that limit was AGI of $145,950, which, by the way, is nowhere near the income required to be in the 35% tax bracket ($326,450 for 2005 for joint returns). So it is simplistic to say that someone in the 35% bracket now receives a tax reduction of 35% for each dollar contributed, because that is absolutely not the case. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s why such a credit would have to be AGI-limited; otherwise, you are giving away more money to the higher income taxpayers than they would have otherwise received.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-21449</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-21449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Vivian -- You&#039;re a math person, so let&#039;s look at the math.

A person in the 36% tax bracket deducts a $100 contribution, and reduces his tax by $36.  Somone in the 10% bracket does the same, and reduces his tax by $10, IF HE HAS ENOUGH DEDUCTIONS TO ITEMIZE.

Now, by my method, assuming the top bracket is 36%, BOTH would get a tax credit of $36.  The rich person&#039;s tax has not changed at all, but the man in the 10% bracket sees his tax go down by $26 to $36.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vivian &#8212; You&#8217;re a math person, so let&#8217;s look at the math.</p>
<p>A person in the 36% tax bracket deducts a $100 contribution, and reduces his tax by $36.  Somone in the 10% bracket does the same, and reduces his tax by $10, IF HE HAS ENOUGH DEDUCTIONS TO ITEMIZE.</p>
<p>Now, by my method, assuming the top bracket is 36%, BOTH would get a tax credit of $36.  The rich person&#8217;s tax has not changed at all, but the man in the 10% bracket sees his tax go down by $26 to $36.</p>
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		<title>By: vjp</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-21255</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vjp]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Dec 2006 05:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-21255</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is a MAJOR difference between a deduction and a credit, especially a refundable credit.

A deduction reduces your taxable income, while a credit reduces your TAX. Credits are, therefore, much more valuable. What you proposed - a credit at the highest marginal bracket - makes NO sense unless it is AGI limited.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a MAJOR difference between a deduction and a credit, especially a refundable credit.</p>
<p>A deduction reduces your taxable income, while a credit reduces your TAX. Credits are, therefore, much more valuable. What you proposed &#8211; a credit at the highest marginal bracket &#8211; makes NO sense unless it is AGI limited.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-21144</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Dec 2006 01:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-21144</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Vivian -- The rich ALREADY DEDUCT IT.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vivian &#8212; The rich ALREADY DEDUCT IT.</p>
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		<title>By: vjp</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-21022</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vjp]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-21022</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I propose that contributions to charities be given a tax credit (refundable) at the highest marginal tax rate.&lt;/i&gt;

No way unless this is limited by AGI. Otherwise, it will be another giveaway for the upper income taxpayers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I propose that contributions to charities be given a tax credit (refundable) at the highest marginal tax rate.</i></p>
<p>No way unless this is limited by AGI. Otherwise, it will be another giveaway for the upper income taxpayers.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-21000</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:50:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-21000</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BTW, I apologize.  Apparently, it is the party in power, whichever that is, that spends like drunken sailors.  The party out-of-power (because they cannot get the earmarks) becomes the party of fiscsal responsibility.  It&#039;s just that the Dems were in power for 40 years, we assumed it was the party, not the power.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, I apologize.  Apparently, it is the party in power, whichever that is, that spends like drunken sailors.  The party out-of-power (because they cannot get the earmarks) becomes the party of fiscsal responsibility.  It&#8217;s just that the Dems were in power for 40 years, we assumed it was the party, not the power.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-20999</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-20999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[He&#039;s an idea for a tax cut that would benefit the poor.  As it turns out, the working poor contribute a higher percentage of their income to charities that does any other segment of the population.  However, they generall cannot deduct those contributions, becuase they do not have enough deductions to itemize.

I propose that contributions to charities be given a tax credit (refundable) at the highest marginal tax rate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He&#8217;s an idea for a tax cut that would benefit the poor.  As it turns out, the working poor contribute a higher percentage of their income to charities that does any other segment of the population.  However, they generall cannot deduct those contributions, becuase they do not have enough deductions to itemize.</p>
<p>I propose that contributions to charities be given a tax credit (refundable) at the highest marginal tax rate.</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/comment-page-1/#comment-20995</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Terry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vivianpaige.wordpress.com/2006/12/15/kaine-proposes-tax-elimination-for-working-poor-other-budget-amendments/#comment-20995</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ll wait while Republicans find it in themselves to apologize for calling us &quot;tax and spend&quot; liberals for all of these years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll wait while Republicans find it in themselves to apologize for calling us &#8220;tax and spend&#8221; liberals for all of these years.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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