If I may comment on your actual post instead of the rodent-based idiocy …

I think that you should stick with your candidate as long as you believe she’s the one you want. I wouldn’t ever back her … but that’s me.

I was with Mike Huckabee when he was polling at 1%. People told me I was crazy and was wasting my vote. I stick by what I did as right.

I am now backing Joe Schriner as am independent, because I believe that he’s the right person for me to back — I won’t go with McCain, Obama, or Clinton.

In all cases, at every moment, every voter should back a candidate that he or she really wants to see win, who shares his or her values, and is the right person for the job. No one should ever just back someone because other people say so.

The Democratic side is very interesting right now, from my point of view.

In fact, the effort to move up the date was sponsored by a Democrat, Jeremy Ring. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&forum=132&topic_id=4626494

Here is a telling quote: “Florida Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller stated on the Senate floor that he was offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5 only because he was threatened by DNC Chair Howard Dean. Sen. Geller than mocked his own amendment which failed on a voice vote without any debate.”

That does not sound like a railroading to me.

“On 10 June 2007, the Florida Democratic Central Committee voted unanimously to support the state’s 29 January 2008 primary.” http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/FL-D.phtml

Furthermore, rather than “having no choice in the matter,” “The Florida House voted unanimously to move it up….” http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/04/us/politics/04florida.html

Is the Florida House made up entirely of Republicans?

As a courtesy to Vivian, I’ll refrain from saying what I think about you and your posts. I’ll merely say that smug, preening self-righteousness from anyone is annoying and deserving of mockery.

That said, if Sen. Clinton were to garner the nomination, I will work for her this election year just as hard as I will for Sen. Obama. (Same if Sen. Edwards or Sen. Dodd or another of our candidates were to have earned the nomination.)

Overall I enjoyed your post and think your loyalty is great and serves our shared party well. But, I do have one nit to pick with your post.

You wrote, “And isn’t trying to not count votes that favor your opponent, most notably FL, the old way?”

…The state parties of Florida and Michigan both knew the DNC rules from the get-go. All of the campaigns agreed to abide by the rules and didn’t visit FL or MI to campaign out of respect for those rules. As has often been noted, members of Sen. Clinton’s campaign staff voted in favor of those rules at the DNC.

Like them or not, the rules are the rules. I have no doubt a plan will be formulated to seat the FL and MI delegations (or a prorated portion thereof, as the Republicans are doing).

But one can’t logically complain about the rules after first agreeing to them… the result would be anarchy (and would likely lead to Thanksgiving primaries and caucuses instead of early January ones).

It’s minor nit on my part, but understandably a major bone of contention among Sen. Clinton’s supporters.

I wish you the best.

Stop by and see what you think of my picks for a Hillary Cabinet (all serious).

Even as a retrospective exercise, Iraq was a matter of life and death for my kid and have no fuse for the right wing war apologists, much less a short one.

More than half of the WHEREAS clauses of the resolution were NOT related to WMD or inspectors.

Yeah, right…. in the right win bizzaro world.

Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

1. Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 (1991), in particular through Iraq’s failure to cooperate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687 (1991);

2. Decides, while acknowledging paragraph 1 above, to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the Council; and accordingly decides to set up an enhanced inspection regime with the aim of bringing to full and verified completion the disarmament process established by resolution 687 (1991) and subsequent resolutions of the Council;

3. Decides that, in order to begin to comply with its disarmament obligations, in addition to submitting the required biannual declarations, the Government of Iraq shall provide to UNMOVIC, the IAEA, and the Council, not later than 30 days from the date of this resolution, a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems such as unmanned aerial vehicles and dispersal systems designed for use on aircraft, including any holdings and precise locations of such weapons, components, sub-components, stocks of agents, and related material and equipment, the locations and work of its research, development and production facilities, as well as all other chemical, biological, and nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to weapon production or material;

4. Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq’s obligations and will be reported to the Council for assessment in accordance with paragraphs 11 and 12 below;

5. Decides that Iraq shall provide UNMOVIC and the IAEA immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to any and all, including underground, areas, facilities, buildings, equipment, records, and means of transport which they wish to inspect, as well as immediate, unimpeded, unrestricted, and private access to all officials and other persons whom UNMOVIC or the IAEA wish to interview in the mode or location of UNMOVIC’s or the IAEA’s choice pursuant to any aspect of their mandates; further decides that UNMOVIC and the IAEA may at their discretion conduct interviews inside or outside of Iraq, may facilitate the travel of those interviewed and family members outside of Iraq, and that, at the sole discretion of UNMOVIC and the IAEA, such interviews may occur without the presence of observers from the Iraqi Government; and instructs UNMOVIC and requests the IAEA to resume inspections no later than 45 days following adoption of this resolution and to update the Council 60 days thereafter;

6. Endorses the 8 October 2002 letter from the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director-General of the IAEA to General Al-Saadi of the Government of Iraq, which is annexed hereto, and decides that the contents of the letter shall be binding upon Iraq;

7. Decides further that, in view of the prolonged interruption by Iraq of the presence of UNMOVIC and the IAEA and in order for them to accomplish the tasks set forth in this resolution and all previous relevant resolutions and notwithstanding prior understandings, the Council hereby establishes the following revised or additional authorities, which shall be binding upon Iraq, to facilitate their work in Iraq:

– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall determine the composition of their inspection teams and ensure that these teams are composed of the most qualified and experienced experts available;

– All UNMOVIC and IAEA personnel shall enjoy the privileges and immunities, corresponding to those of experts on mission, provided in the Convention on Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations and the Agreement on the Privileges and Immunities of the IAEA;

– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have unrestricted rights of entry into and out of Iraq, the right to free, unrestricted, and immediate movement to and from inspection sites, and the right to inspect any sites and buildings, including immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to Presidential Sites equal to that at other sites, notwithstanding the provisions of resolution 1154 (1998);

– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to be provided by Iraq the names of all personnel currently and formerly associated with Iraq’s chemical, biological, nuclear, and ballistic missile programmes and the associated research, development, and production facilities;

– Security of UNMOVIC and IAEA facilities shall be ensured by sufficient United Nations security guards;

– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to declare, for the purposes of freezing a site to be inspected, exclusion zones, including surrounding areas and transit corridors, in which Iraq will suspend ground and aerial movement so that nothing is changed in or taken out of a site being inspected;

– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the free and unrestricted use and landing of fixed- and rotary-winged aircraft, including manned and unmanned reconnaissance vehicles;

– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right at their sole discretion verifiably to remove, destroy, or render harmless all prohibited weapons, subsystems, components, records, materials, and other related items, and the right to impound or close any facilities or equipment for the production thereof; and

– UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to free import and use of equipment or materials for inspections and to seize and export any equipment, materials, or documents taken during inspections, without search of UNMOVIC or IAEA personnel or official or personal baggage;

8. Decides further that Iraq shall not take or threaten hostile acts directed against any representative or personnel of the United Nations or the IAEA or of any Member State taking action to uphold any Council resolution;

9. Requests the Secretary-General immediately to notify Iraq of this resolution, which is binding on Iraq; demands that Iraq confirm within seven days of that notification its intention to comply fully with this resolution; and demands further that Iraq cooperate immediately, unconditionally, and actively with UNMOVIC and the IAEA;

10. Requests all Member States to give full support to UNMOVIC and the IAEA in the discharge of their mandates, including by providing any information related to prohibited programmes or other aspects of their mandates, including on Iraqi attempts since 1998 to acquire prohibited items, and by recommending sites to be inspected, persons to be interviewed, conditions of such interviews, and data to be collected, the results of which shall be reported to the Council by UNMOVIC and the IAEA;

11. Directs the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director-General of the IAEA to report immediately to the Council any interference by Iraq with inspection activities, as well as any failure by Iraq to comply with its disarmament obligations, including its obligations regarding inspections under this resolution;

12. Decides to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security;

13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;

14. Decides to remain seized of the matter.

I would not have thought it possible, but you appear to have gotten even dumber as this thread has progressed. That’s quite an accomplishment. Congratulations.

You are correct. After spending a few hundred billion dollars and a 30,000 American casualties, the Islamic Revolution in Iraq won and therefore dropped the revolution name from the party.

I bet that makes you bush apologist do somersaults with glee knowing our blood and treasure brought forth the Islamic revolution in Iraq. Good for you!

“The circumstances by which you live determine your reputation, but the truth you believe determines your character.”

Rather than expound on what I’ve already written I’ll provide the links:

http://bbooth.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/fanning-the-flames-of-discord/
http://bbooth.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/what-if/

What would the outcome of the race be … if Mrs. Clinton had use the strategy of unification as opposed to preying on the fears and prejudices of the nation?

Definitely keep your posts coming. Your thoughts are most insightful and opens up the forum of discussion.

OK, I’ll buy that. What policies or programs, exactly, do Democrats favor and Republicans oppose that you think will give us a better country?

The Democratic leadership deserves *loads* of scorn. A full on WTF-are-you-people-doing-!?!-kick-in-the-ass serving of scorn. But given the choices this fall, the ballot box (on that day) is not the place to serve it up. Cutting off your nose to spite your face, and all that. Let’s put a Dem in the White House and increase the majorities on November 4th. On November 5th, we train our sights on our elected Dems, giving them no quarter for excuses and dithering.

I vote for and support Democrats because I want a better country. Not simply because I want Democrats in charge.

Yes, God is good.

Hillary’s got some fantastic and dedicated supporters who are going to stick with her.

Mouse has earned some return on his trolling (and reproduced, apparently. Good god.).

And most of the Republicans that show up here still aren’t very bright.

Can we stop now? Kthxbye.

“There was not an established base there under Saddam….”

Wrong.

“…and once we leave they would have no reason to stay there.”

Yes, they will: oil money.

Unlike you, I encourage my children to go into the military.

It consistently amazes me how many really really smart readers Vivian’s site gets….

And it gets you, too.

NND said,

You are too stupid to even know that the Maliki political part is SCIRI, The Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq

Someone who thinks himself so knowledgeable would surely realize that SCIRI has changed its name, right?

Furthermore, WMD and the return of the inspectors was not the sole intention of the Resolution. More than half of the WHEREAS clauses of the resolution were NOT related to WMD or inspectors.

If it were a matter of Iraqis’ killing each other, I would probably agree with you, Gene, that we need to get out. Unfortunately, it is not that simple. Leaving Iraq would give terrorists a haven, and they would have oil revenue in abundance.

If, as you say, that our troops “were never told before hand that they could lose their lives based on big lies,” then their high school history professors were delinquent in teaching about the Gulf of Tonkin incident that Johnson used to get us mired in Vietnam.

BTW, our nation wasn’t threatened by the Kosovo conflict, either, nor by Somalia, but Pres. Clinton sent them there. If Sen. Clinton wants to claim her time with Bill in the White House as “experience,” then she should answer for the deaths of our soldiers there.

1- The AUF was passed to provide the leverage for the US to go to the UN to get a resolution of disarmament and a vigorous inspections regimes back in Iraq.
2- The UN passed the resolution and the world knew there would be military consequences should Iraq fail to comply.
3- Iraq capitulated, accepted the new resolution and UNMOVIC and the IAEA reentered Iraq.
4- The Inspectors were provided unfettered access to suspected sites, finding nothing but a technical violation of Al-Samoud intermediate range missiles that had a range of a few miles over the allowable limit. They were bulldozed and destroyed.
5- No other violations were being found and bushco was screwed…their rational for an invasion and occupation (the marketing campaign for a new product (the war) they rolled in in September) was blowing up.

The threat of force in conjunction with robust diplomacy worked for the stated goal of verifiable disarmament by Iraq. It WAS A SUCCESS and that is what Hillary voted for. Her error was thinking shrub was a man of his word and would abide by agreements he made. I fault her for that and I fault me for giving bush credit for this great diplomatic success which turned out to be a lie and charade he perpetrated on the American people, the Congress and the world.

It did not matter if vague earlier statements were being made. They were distractions to stop the real diplomacy going on at the UN. If that is all that was required, the inspectors would have already been in Iraq. Read some of Ambassador Joe Wilson’s articles on this and how the real world operates.

You are deluding yourself into thinking anything other that bushco made a strategic blunder of catastrophic proportions and no re-writing of history will prove anything other than that fact. The real grown-ups, men like Jim Webb and Anthony Zinni, predicted the clusterF that was to follow this reckless and wrongheaded decision to invade and occupy a country in the heart of the middle east. Damn, anyone who as seen Lawrence of Arabia could have predicted it.

I’m sorry to say that I am one of those registered voters in Norfolk who didn’t vote in last Tuesday’s elections. Why you may ask. My answer, that I am disillustioned by the choices. It’s not so much voting for the best person, it’s become more like voting for the lesser evil. Too bad there aren’t more down-to-earth folks that are willing to represent the people – the “real, hard-working, low and middle income people” and have their best interest at heart. The whole situation is a sad one.

I still haven’t decided whether you are ill-informed, stupid or both.

October 10 – The United States Congress passes the Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq.

November 8, 2002

The UN Council votes unanimously for resolution 1441, the 17th Iraq disarmament resolution passed by the council, calling for immediate and complete disarmament of Iraq. The resolution also demands that Iraq declare all weapons of mass destruction to the council, and account for its known chemical weapons material stockpiles.

November 13, 2002

Iraq accepts U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441 and informs the UN that it will abide by the resolution.
Weapons inspectors arrive in Baghdad again after a four-year absence.

Maybe conservatives have their own special calendar that goes backwards, like the way they think!

I have no problem with giving Hillary her delegates alloted for 55% of the vote in Michigan, and the other 45% to Barack, and also have no problem alloting Hillary her delegates from Florida which would be based on about 54% and allot Obama the rest of the delegates. that would be the fairest way to resolve the issue. Would not change anything however. Also you act like I am one of those out there beating the Bush for Obama and you know that has not happened. I am not outspoken for either candidate, just stated my preference and have basically left it alone. My candidate wil be the one that wins this thing, which based on the numbers will be Obama. Ask NNDEM how serene I am about the whole thing. Oh NNDEM, just to make you feel at home and keep your streak going- STFU. P.S. That should win me a nice cold 22 oz. pitcher of some nice cold true Irish Ale.

And don’t throw that “free speech” stuff at me. There are always limits to free speech. Telling folks to ignore Mouse in no way limits his free speech. If I wanted to limit his free speech, I could just ban him. Which I’m tempted to do quite often.

NND – calm down. It ain’t worth it.

Mouse – cool it. I mean it.

Good for him. I notice he is still in, too.

“Senator Clinton voted for the Authorization to Use Force as THREAT of force as leverage to go to the UN to return UNMOVIC and the IAEA inspections regimes back into Iraq.”

That’s a good one. Congress voted for the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 on October 11, 2002, more than three weeks after Iraq had agreed to allow the inspectors to return without conditions.

Why would Clinton vote to authorize the use of force to get Iraq to do what it had already done? Maybe since she couldn’t be bothered to read the intel reports before sending the troops to war, she couldn’t be bothered to learn that Iraq had already agreed to allow the inspectors back in. Maybe she couldn’t be bothered to actually read the Resolution before she voted on it.

I am pragmatic enough to say it DOES go both ways- I’m not happy with things the Clinton campaign has said- especially about the youth vote. It makes me very happy to see the under 35 vote start to get mobilized. And like I said- this same argument was made in 1992 when I part of that “youth” vote that swept Bill Clinton into office.

Let me just say this, neither campaign can claim to wear a “halo”. I don’t like things I have seen on both sides and I know that this is how things get. This is the reason I’m not on the campaign trail anymore- I don’t have a stomach for it. As much as I love politics- I don’t like the way that primaries become “us vs. them”, when in turn- we are ALL Democrats.

My Marine was not drafted but he answered the call to serve his country, prior to 9-11. Just because we do not draft does not mean little tin horn chickenhawks like bush and cheney, with subservient cowards like you, may misuse their service by sending them into a needless and unnecessary war. There is not greater stain on the entire neo con cabal that the stains of the red blood of the soldiers sailors and Marines who were sent to their death and dismemberment for some idea ginned up in a right wing “think” tank.

By the way, Senator Clinton voted for the Authorization to Use Force as THREAT of force as leverage to go to the UN to return UNMOVIC and the IAEA inspections regimes back into Iraq. I actually applauded the success of this when the inspectors were in fact reinserted into Iraq. But they were finding that Iraq did not in fact still posses the prohibited WMD and blew a hole in the entire war rational. It was your boy bush who lied to all when he announce the AUF vote was a vote for peace. It was your boy bush who lied to the world when he promised to go back to the UN for a second resolution if war was the next step. It was you boy bush who misused the AUF, just like he misused and broke our military.

You right wing apologist for bush are either uninformed idiots or just plain stupid. In your case, I bet both.

Where did you get your numbers?

And your Democrats in Congress (including Sen. Clinton) voted to go to war in Iraq, and continue to fund the war. It seems they know better than their core constituency.

All of which ignores the fact that of all the Democratic candidates for President this year, the Democrats will nominate the LEAST qualified. Pitiful, but not surprising.

How does that equate to Mouse taking things “off topic”? You didn’t say “sometimes it’s best to just ignore proudvadem for starting the Iraq debate in the comments, but you want to ignore Mouse for responding.

Boy, liberals are weird about free speech.

proudvadem – when you say things are going both ways and proceed to give only an example of what the Hillary campaign has done, it doesn’t square.

AIAW, Bill & NND – glad to know I’m not the last Hillary supporter in Virginia.

hoh – if that’s the only reason you couldn’t support Hillary, I think that’s pretty shallow.

gene – since you’re so concerned about Democratic voters, how about your candidate allowing the votes for FL and MI to count?

MB – right as usual.

All – sometimes it’s best to just ignore Mouse.

our military fights them over there, so we don’t have to fight them here.

This is the most vile and disgusting charge you apologist for Bush make. Take your flypaper theory and stick it. You are now just a blithering idiot worthy of contempt and scorn. How God Damn insulting you embrace the policy that sent my Marine to Iraq to attract people into Iraq to kill him so we might kill more of them while they are there. You are an imbecile if you think we are going to put the last bullet in the last terrorist and declare victory and end terrorism. Go to bloody hell you soulless bastard.

We went into Iraq because bush and the noecons ginned up a war rational, to disarm Saddam from his WMD. If you had a damn clue, you would know that only about 2% of the people we are fighting came there to kill Americans. The rest are part of indigenous sects or tribes fighting for religious, political and financial reasons. You are too stupid to even know that the Maliki political part is SCIRI, The Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq

Damn, you ruined my Sunday night with this crap. Too bad 4000 Mothers could not truly celebrate today because of you and your little despot, bush

Gene — If they weren’t in Iraq, they’d be training. And that’s no picnic, either. Our military death rates aren’t much worse now than when Clinton was in office, and are lower than when Reagan was president. Even Carter had more military deaths in 1980 than Bush has had in ANY year.

http://www.murdoconline.net/pics/Death_Rates.pdf

Now, your point about “making their task very easy” is well taken, and that is part of the reason we are in Iraq — our military fights them over there, so we don’t have to fight them here.

Mouse, most supporters of this strategic blunder in Iraq have deluded themselves into conflating Iraq with the GWOT. Iraq had virtually nothing to do with what you people call islamo-fascist terrorism. In fact, Iraq was more of a bulwark against it, a strategic counterweight to Iran in the region, with the secular dictator Saddam in power. This war has made both the threat of terrorism worse while actual terrorist attacks have exploded worldwide since. Randy is impeccably correct, to make false comparisons to WW2 and the Cold War to Iraq is both intellectually lazy and is factually an absurd claim to make. If blowing $2,000,000,000,000.00, wrecking our magnificent military and causing incredible death and destruction of Americans and Iraqis only to make matters worse is something you embrace, seek counseling at your local Bush addictive rehab center.

Oh, since Iraq is this democratic wonderland, maybe Jenna is honeymooning there this week, you think?

they have had way fewer than the U.S. since you have to consider every troop that has died in Iraq as a terrorist act. Remember we are making their task very easy, the terrorist that have came to Iraq since the fiasco don’t even have to plan an attack against our mainland all they have to do is sit in the country of Iraq and fire away. Shoot they haven’t even got to buy gas to shoot at americans over there , just go down the street. Are you really scared of the terrorist. Do you wake up in the middle of the night with a cold sweat thinking they are going to bomb your house. Americans are a bunch of wimps if they fear that easy or think that the terrorist are out to get them.