Bill Maher’s show is one that I try not to miss. Lots of folks appear on the show. Below is a clip from one episode that I saw when it aired and thought was very powerful. As the description on YouTube says, “Richard Dreyfuss suggests that the current inattentive, apathetic and uninterested nature of our citizenry will eventually doom U.S. republican democracy. He discusses Jeffersonian views and how the future survival of our freedom and democracy is dependent upon an educated and inquisitive citizenry.” Spend 4 minutes to listen. You’ll be glad you did. (h/t BD)
32 thoughts on “Dreyfuss on Democracy”
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VIVIAN J. PAIGE | All Politics is Local 
Good speech — almost. Dreyfuss says we have to do something, but what does he mean by that? Frankly, I think problem Dreyfuss poses exists because we are doing something. Instead of putting parents in charge of the education of their children, we have put politicians in charge of the education of other people’s children. That is like putting the fox in charge of the hen house.
Just because we want them to work a certain way, systems do not work the way we want them to work. Systems only work the way we want them to work when we understand how to design them properly. If we want children to understand how their government works, the last people we want to put in charge of their education is politicians.
If you want children to learn, put the people who love them the most in charge of their education, parents. Allow parents the right to choose where their children go to school. Instead of dictating a government monopoly, allow diversity and competition.
Consider how the current system works. Politicians do not answer to parents. Politicians answer to organized political constituencies (special interests). The administrators of the public school system do not answer to parents. The administrators of the public school system answers to the people who pay the bill, the politicians. Because the way the tax system works, the politicians get our money whether we like it or not.
I couldn’t disagree more. While it may be true that our tax dollars provide for the education of all children it is absolutely untrue that “politicians” are educating them. Professional educators are doing the job under damned dreary conditions that have been produced by the regressive philosophy shoved down the throats of America for the past 30 years under the guise that it’s a majority. Believe me we will pay for this for generations.
Regressives have no respect for anyone who doesn’t make a lot of money and guess what? Most teachers don’t make a lot of money, they do it because they love it. Having a GED (requirement to homeschool) does not replace a person who has spent 4+ years specifically studying education. Homeschooling is only slightly worse a notion than taking public money and putting it in private hands. If it was your house they were doing that with you’d be crying bloody murder.
Dreyfus is absolutely correct with his assertion that we are putting people in charge of running the government who don’t know what they’re doing. They don’t know what they’re doing because somewhere along the line it became acceptable to not teach civics. It became the domain of the Skull and Bones crowd, no one else need apply. Well, it doesn’t work that way and despite the efforts of Grover Norquist, the PNAC gang, the Federalist Society, AEI, The Heritage Foundation, Richard Mellon Scaife, et al PUBLIC EDUCATION is the best investment we make. Educating every citizen so they may participate in the governing of their country is a noble cause. And remember, freedom isn’t free.
Happy Holidays!
Frugal, we have put politicians in charge of the education of children. That is not the same as having politicians educate children. If anything, it is worse. Even as you yourself describe our education system, it is not working. Homeschooling in fact seems to produce better results. As it is currently constituted, this system defeats all but the best efforts of professional educators.
The problem is not a shortage of money. Instead we have lots of money that is being poorly spent producing poor results. Do you have any idea how much money we spend on public education per student? Have you checked what the counties in Northern Virginia are spending? I will make it easy for you (http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=74779&paper=60&cat=104). If we are not spending enough money, nobody is spending enough money.
The money is being poorly spent because we keep electing people who don’t know squat about governance. We have the money and the know-how but it is much more advantageous to keep those minimum wage jobs filled, the shelves at Wal-Mart stocked with cheap Chinese crap, and our for-profit prison system stocked to the brim so the shareholders will be hap, hap, happy!
I know this is going to be tough for you to hear but I have a hot flash for you; America us now number one ONLY in the number of people we have imprisoned. As conservative ideology and dogma have marketed the notion that it’s every man for himself; pull yourself up by your bootstraps (assuming you have some); taxes are unfair, etc. etc. so the quality and effectivness of public education has gone down the tubes. But, it’s probably a better investment to have kids edcuated by their GED, born-again moms than properly trained, certified and licensed teachers. So by all means, I’m sure you’ll be willing to do without some government services (pick one…FEMA’s gone, but there are others to choose from…) don’t make that investment in education and while we’re at it, we may as well let the infrastructure go to hell too…no investment in the future is the way of NOW. Well, I guess it’s all the pessimists have, they surely no longer have hope.
Fellow Traveler, could you at least string together a group of logically related thoughts.
Here are a couple of questions for you.
1. If we keep electing people who know nothing about governance, how is our poorly electorate going to elect better people?
2. What minimum wage jobs has to do with screwing up the education system, I have no idea. Are you actually suggesting our politicians are deliberately doing a bad job with education system? In that case, why would you want politicians running it?
The conservative ideology has nothing to do with your description of it. Check out this.
Citizen,
By teaching CIVICS. Try to track the conversarion here…
Minimum wage jobs has to do with classism and yes, politicians who don’t believe in the value of public education are hurting the system. As I said earlier, educating every child in how to use use the tools of government and to tap the vast potential that is America is how we will regain our footing as leaders in the world.
I checked your link. I especially love the part about limited government , a balanced budget and PROMOTING Christianity. With the exception of shoving evangelical Christianity and revisionist history down our throats it didn’t jibe with reality. I don’t think I’d use that link again if I were you.
“Homeschooling is only slightly worse a notion than taking public money and putting it in private hands. If it was your house they were doing that with you’d be crying bloody murder.” — The Frugal Revolutionary
I’m afraid I don’t understand. What is “public money”? Isn’t “public money” just private money that has been taken from those who earned it? So what’s the problem with putting it back into private hands? Don’t we do this with Social Security, Welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, and AFDC? Does no government money go to private colleges? So why not private high schools?
We do give money to private schools thanks to NCLB. So, whether you or I like it it’s already happening.
Public Education is the promotion of the general welfare of the nation. I for one support it, am happy to pay taxes to support it and believe deeply that educating all our citizens is what once set us far apart from the rest of the world. I hope we can get there again.
I have to work now. Nice chatting. Happy New Year!
Fellow Traveler – what we see tends to depend upon our point of view. This is an inherent failing in each of us. We can only partially overcome this weakness by trying to walk a mile in the other guy’s shoes. Your comment on the Wikipedia link I provided (in comment 5) exemplifies this problem; in fact, it shows a severe lack empathy for the other point of view. If all you see is what you are rabidly against, how will you ever begin to understand the other point of view.
Have you ever considered how a Christian Conservative might react to you? If I were react reflexively, I would say you act the part of a rabid Secular Humanist exceedingly well. Why shouldn’t a Conservative see you as a threat? Who is shoving whose ideas down whose throat? Are you or are you not deliberately trying to use government-run educational institutional to promote values that you deem good? Where does the promotion of a religious value system end and the promotion of secularized value system begin?
Consider that the promotion of Christianity by some social conservatives is only one aspect of the conservative movement. Since religious freedom is a value upheld by most conservatives, an idea that in fact originated within the Christian community, what happens in practice is that conservatives do not use government to shove evangelical Christianity and revisionist history down people’s throats. In fact, the idea of limited government and religious freedom are very much in accord. The more decisions we are allowed to make without government interference, the more religious freedom we in fact have.
Back to the subject. While you are considering Jack’s question, please explain how “politicians who don’t believe in the value of public education are hurting the system.” Given the steady increase in real funding for education, I see little evidence to support such a contention. What I do see is evidence of the inherent weakness of any socialist institution. Without real competition, any government institution tend to serve that institution’s power elites. With little control over funding decisions, the institution’s supposed customers have little power to effect decision making. So far, only conservative politicians have shown any inclination to address that dilemma.
Au contraire my friend. You are laboring under the illusion that only private enterprise can be competitive. Competitive for money perhaps but not necessarily for getting the job done well.
Furthermore, your reaction to my statement regarding religion couldn’t be further from the truth. I believe that a young person’s spiritual life should be guided from the home and their place of worship. Never, ever in the public education system. BTW, Santa Claus is NOT a religious symbol so let’s not get into that particular pissing match.
I guess the difference between the way you see things and the way I see things is that I don’t believe that children are dispensible. Private education always has the option to throw out the bad apples. My belief is that today’s bad apple may be tomorrow’s doctor, lawyer, CEO or god forbid, teacher. All children deserve a shot at the so-called American Dream.
In addition, people have plenty of input on how their tax dollars are spent but they rarely take the opportunity to participate in the discussion (see the % of people who even vote in local elections). It was cute the way you threw in the word socialist just for the sake of insult. Unfortunately is does not apply in this case. You are entitled to your opinion but not your facts.
Since we’re on the subject and you object so strenuously to how your taxes are spent, given your druthers what other government services would you be willing to do without? Firefighters, police, garbage, disaster relief? As you conservatives are so fond of saying, freedom isn’t free. We all have to work at it or it will be gone. Remember habeas corpus? If you hadn’t taken civics somewhere along the way you may not even know it’s gone.
Actually, I don’t labor under the illusion that only private enterprise can be competitive. I am retired from the USAF. The military forces of different nations tend to be quite competitive. This seems to have something to do with the reward for success versus the consequences of failure.
With some difficulty, government agencies can be set up so that they have to compete for dollars and take an active interest in what their customers actually want. While not perfect, our public colleges, for example, are relatively good. I think there are two reasons for that. One is that people still have some choice as to where they take their money. The second is that public colleges still face significant competition from the private sector. The top 20 colleges are private institutions.
Unfortunately, this situation is slowly changing. Every year our private colleges receive more money from the Federal government and State governments. Enough government money and we risk turning our private colleges into socialist institutions. So far, however, students still decide where they take their own cash and government loans and scholarships. That makes a big difference; it forces the colleges to consider their customer’s needs and wants.
Contrary to your absurd guess, I do not see children as dispensable. What I see is the waste produced by the public education system. Since you have no way to answer my question or Jack’s, I think you see that waste too. What you apparently will not accept is the root cause for that waste. For example, you think I “threw in the word socialist just for the sake of insult.” Not true. What is, is.
Socialism is a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. Our public schools are socialist institutions, and that is a simple unfortunate fact.
I do find it interesting that so many people who oppose school choice at the elementary and secondary levels, support it at the college level. Can someone explain that to me?
No one is obligated to go to college. I would hope that everyone would support the notion of at least some basic education. Oh, that’s right, conservatives won’t really mind if feral bands of poor children are roaming the streets as long as their money isn’t being used for a purpose they don’t approve of (I’ll throw in police protection – you can hire private guards, firefighters, etc.)
Invest in prisons. It’s probably the best use of your money.
Fellow Traveler – perhaps you are confused about the purpose of argument and debate. If we choose to attack each other, argument and debate serve almost no useful purpose. Instead of attacking each other, we should attack “the problem.”
On some issues, the people of our nation must work together as a team. To help us rise above such communications difficulties, please consider the following five-step approach.
1. We agree that there is a problem.
2. We agree upon a definition of this problem.
3. We agree upon the problem’s solution.
4. We agree upon how to implement this solution.
5. We implement the solution.
We have agreed there is a problem. What is the problem? I say we have devised a system that works poorly. What do you think we are doing wrong?
1. We don’t allow school districts (for the most part) decide how, when and why to spend their money.
2. Teachers are not paid enough. (Teaching is still viewed as “women’s work”.)
3. There is not enough “diversity” in the teaching force. (90+% women, 80+% Caucasian.) We need men in the classroom – see #2.
4. It has become way too easy to drop out of school (I’m not exactly as old as dirt but it seems as though it used to be a LOT harder to just drop out.)
5. We use “alternative” placement as a means of discipline as opposed to a means of educating those whose learning abilities fall outside the core.
6. We teach to the test thereby eliminating the need to learn to think critically. In addition, we are doing a woefully poor job of preparing students to be successful in the post-industrial global economy.
7. We don’t treat teachers as the professionals they are.
8. Administrations are top heavy.
9. We don’t address the achievement gap among minority students in any meaningful way. We must find a way to eliminate metriculation from high school to prison.
10. We need to teach civics every year K-12 to prepare young people not only to lead but to participate as well.
The preceding represents just a few of the things I feel is lacking in public education.
Thank you for your reasonable reply.