Bill Maher’s show is one that I try not to miss. Lots of folks appear on the show. Below is a clip from one episode that I saw when it aired and thought was very powerful. As the description on YouTube says, “Richard Dreyfuss suggests that the current inattentive, apathetic and uninterested nature of our citizenry will eventually doom U.S. republican democracy. He discusses Jeffersonian views and how the future survival of our freedom and democracy is dependent upon an educated and inquisitive citizenry.” Spend 4 minutes to listen. You’ll be glad you did. (h/t BD)
32 thoughts on “Dreyfuss on Democracy”
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VIVIAN J. PAIGE | All Politics is Local 
Dear Fellow Traveller:
I’m not at all sure what your rant in Comment 13 is about, but it does not seem to be addressing the issue of school choice that I mentioned in #12.
In comment #14, however, you bring up some interesting points.
1. I completely agree. The federal government’s mandating all sorts of B.S. isn’t helping.
2. Again, I agree that teachers are not paid enough. But to get better people, we also need to get rid of the unions that protect the incompetent, and which require an Education degree, rather than a Math degree, to teach Math.
As for “still viewed as ‘women’s work,'” it was quite the opposite 100 years ago, when most men were teachers.
3. I do not see the relevance. Are women less competent to teach?
4. I view the drop-out rate as a consequence of our trying to teach everyone as though they are going to college. (Sorry, but people are NOT created with equal intelligence.) As such, those who know they are not going to college see no point in their High School course-work, and they are correct.
5. That “alternative” placement need to have relevant courses, such as Shop, Carpentry, and Auto Mechanics.
6. Amen, Brother!
7. Two in a row!!
8. Three-for-three!!
9. I think we may be going back to the “relevant courses” argument I made before.
10. I entirely agree. No-one even reads the Federalist Papers or John Stewart Mills “On Liberty” anymore.
Of course women are not less competent than men but they still get paid less (it’s up to .81 for every dollar a man makes) and (believe it or not) they are not viewed as the “breadwinners” of the family. Ergo, teachers are paid less than comparable professions, i.e. professions that require the same amount of education.
My point about college was that college is not a necessity as are learning to read, do math, etc. College is still a choice for most people.
That brings us to another point that I believe we (GASP) agree on. Not everyone wants, can afford it or needs to go to college. However, everyone must make some kind of living (unless of course you’re a woman and you can find a man to take care of you and the little ones – good luck by the way!) We are always going to need plumbers, electricians, builders, cooks, etc. and these courses should be offered and encouraged. These are the people who will start and run local businesses which happens to be an important point as so many students go away to college and then wind up moving away from family and home to make the “big” money. For every dollar spent at a local idependent business .70 stays in the local economy!
I don’t think most students would even know what you are referring to in #10 and that is what really scares me. How will this country be run when we don’t even teach the basic tools? Democracy requires participation regardless of which side of the aisle you sit on. I happen to think that there should be a “service requirement” for high school graduation as well. Maryland does that and it’s really quite successful and it is teaching by doing.
Check out P.E.N. (Public Education Network) and their LEF’s (local education funds) – you might find it interesting.
Fellow Traveler – Interesting list. My take on each specific point within the list is similar to Jack’s. What I would add is that this list describes symptoms of an underlying cause.
Consider how a doctor diagnoses a disease. If you have a sore throat, headache, stuffy nose, watering eyes, hacking cough, chills, and general malaise, you have bunch of symptoms. You only have one real problem, and that is the common cold.
So the first question I would ask is whether all the symptoms you have described are related to the same underlying problem. I think that they are. What I think is that we are seeing what results from a government monopoly.
Let’s consider how each symptom relates to the underlying cause.
1. Politicians are risk adverse, and they do not like giving up power. Businessmen delegate authority because the demands of competition give them no other choice.
2 and 3. Currently, teacher pay is not decided by the market place. If the market place were allowed to decide the issue, high school math and science teachers would be paid better.
4 and 5. Learning can be fun, but public schools do not do a good job of treating students and parents as customers. Politicians, not students and parents control school funding decisions.
6. Because of the absence of school choice, our politicians are trying to test quality into public education. That does not work well. To verify we are educating students well, we need tests; but to have a good education system, we need to design a good education system. We cannot fix the public education system just by giving students harder tests.
7. Businesses value their employees because other businesses can hire them away.
8. Competition puts businesses that waste money on unneeded middle management layers out of business.
9. To position themselves to best effect in the market place, businesses target specific consumer needs. Government agencies just work to make the politicians who fund them happy.
10. When students learn how to participate in civics, does that serve the needs of politicians?
We like to think that parents and their children are the customers of the public school system, but that just is not true. Politicians decide the mission of the public school system, and politicians decide the allocation of school funding. Politicians only indirectly represent the needs of parents and their children. Politicians do care, but their concern about public education gets lost in fights over other issues and the various conflicting demands of their organized political constituencies.
Businesses, on the other hand, do not have to put up with all the government red tape. What they must do is keep their customers happy. No customers, no business.
Consider an old joke.
Question: What is a camel?
Answer: A horse designed by a committee.
RE: …educating every child in how to use the tools of government and to tap the vast potential that is America is how we will regain our footing as leaders in the world.
Here is a part of the problem – far too much dependence of “government” – far too little focus on education teaching our next generations how to develop and run their own businesses – teaching our children how to take responsibility for standing on their own and assuming a path whereby they can compete and succeed in the fee market.
Public schools, in my observation, have become indoctrination institutions. I happen to believe that the movement to remove God from the public square and replace faith in God with faith in human-science is replacing one religion with another. Evolution as the source of the creation of human beings remains a theory, not a fact.
Yes, evolution does happen – that is a fact too. But the theory of human evolution taught in our public/government school system is a theory that is presented as a fact.
I loved the comment about school choice for post K-12 education! Excellent. The counter argument was unconvincing to me. Well, gee golly – um, well ya see – everyone needs basic read’in -n- writing – but not everyone needs higher education! I … am …. speechless! How funny!
Getting back to Richard Dryfuss for the moment – his words sure sound nice, but “dissent” is not “American” when it is making statements that are treasonous (making war on our nation or giving aid and comfort to our enemies), or a form of sedition. Only the most warped “logic” could draw the conclusion that public speeches advocating the destruction of the United States are being “American”. Or .. a form of “democracy”. Last I checked our nation was a Republic, but hey … I am a product of public schools, wadda I know, LOL?!
Oh … about public school teachers being “professionals” – they aren’t. Not in the legal sense anyway. I learned the legal definition of a “professional” is a person that can be held personally responsible for the outcome of their work product – that being doctors, lawyers, architects, etc. Teachers are not personally held legally responsible if our children fail to learn what the teachers are required to teach them. They have impunity from law suits. They are employees. They assume no personal liability for the outcome of what they are paid to do. That being said, I agree that our society fails to treat teachers with adequate respect for the difficult and important job they are tasked to do.
IRT: We don’t address the achievement gap among minority students in any meaningful way. We must find a way to eliminate metriculation from high school to prison.
That’s easy – stop breaking the law and ya don’t go to prison.
The “achievement gap” – for “minorities”. Last time I checked everyone had a equal opportunity to pay attention is public schools – and to learn what they were being taught. Last time I checked we find children of all races, ethic backgrounds, and socio-ecomic classes as honors students. The “achievement gap” – boy, that sure sounds impressive – as if it is something real, doesn’t it?
A student that refuses to learn and throws away the opportunities they are given reaps what they sow.
And if they end up in jail for committing crimes – they have also reaped what they have sown.
Or is the assertion that “minorities” did not commit the crimes they are sent to prison for?
Reid Greenmun — We probably agree more than we disagree, but some of your statements strike me as unduly harsh.
Re: “That’s easy – stop breaking the law and ya don’t go to prison.”
When I was growing up in the 50’s and 60’s, I was a military brat. I went to four different high schools alone. I noticed some schools did a better job of encouraging good behavior than others. Fortunately for me, God favored me with loving parents. Fortunately for me, I attended relatively good schools.
Intercity schools have little to recommend them. The urban poor, in particular, often have fractured families.
Consider your above statement in context with an earlier statement. “Public schools, in my observation, have become indoctrination institutions. I happen to believe that the movement to remove God from the public square and replace faith in God with faith in human-science is replacing one religion with another.” I think you realize as well as I do that the values we impart to our children must be integrated with the rest of their education. Unfortunately, most of our society still accepts the notion that a religious education can and should be wholly separated from all other aspects of a child’s education.
As they grow up, young people can replace the poor values inadvertently inculcated into them in badly managed schools with better values, but that takes time and hard earned wisdom. By then, those unfortunate enough to receive instruction in the wrong kind of values may have already spent time in prison.
Anyone who has paid attention to the state of public education knows that the achievement gap is real and getting worse. In a simple world it would suffice to say that it’s their fault but what you fail to consider is that not everyone is born into the same circumstances and that circumstances can and do influence how people grow up. You have a particularly harsh opinion of teachers and education that is totally underserved. If you believe that teachers are not held responsible for the job they do you really need to visit a local school board meeting or visit a school.
As far as taking god out of school that is exactly the way it should be. You are making the assumption that should we allow outright demonstrations of religion in the public schools that it would be the religion you adhere to. The only way to guarantee religious freedom is to keep it out of the public realm.
The phrase that schools are nothing more than government indoctrination centers is tiresome and false. While government (or more specifically a particular ideology) has put extremely detrimental hurdles on the system it is unfair to assume that teachers are held to some otherworldly standard that allows them to spout off their personal beliefs. Apparently you have fallen for the false assertions of David Horowitz and his witch hunt.
The public education system in this country by and large does an excellent job. The major problem with it is people who don’t respect educators or people who don’t believe what they do. For instance, gravity is a theory too. Does that mean that you will be jumping out of a skyscraper because it is a “theory”?
As far as going to college not everyone is college material or interested in careers that require a college education. We need to educate every child – K-12 – if they go on to college that’s great, if not, that’s ok too. For instance, my electrician does not have a college degree yet manages to do quite well.
By all means if you want your child to receive religious indoctrination along with their abc’s then open your wallet and send them to private school. I do not feel that my money should be used to bolster your personal beliefs. My money should be used for the common good and for the education of as many students as possible.
That education should include the teaching of civics.
Legally, professionals cannot unionize. Therefore, legally, public school teachers are not professionals. Furthermore, female public school teachers are NOT paid less than males, because pay is by education and seniority.
If teachers WERE professionals, i.e., not unionized, and majoring in the subjects they teach, not in Education, they might get more respect and be paid more. The fact is, though, that in general it is the least intelligent of the college-educated who major in Education. This gets a bit circular, because if we paid more, we might get more intelligent teachers, too. But when we pay History teachers the same as we pay Math and Science teachers, we will not get good Math and Science teachers.
“The public education system in this country by and large does an excellent job.” Really? By what measure? Not by the results of our math and science scores in tests against other countries. Nor in our teaching of foreign languages.
Gravity is not a theory, it is fact. However, our Gravitational Theory, which is a mathematical description of gravity, is a theory, and a demonstably false one at the Quantum level. (At this point, we have no theory of Quantum Gravity, nor of Quantum Relativity.) The Theory of Evolution is not even that good. It cannot be used at all for prediction of future events, and so is quite useless. Our gravitational theory can be used to determine that, should one jump out a window, one will go SPLAT, and it can even be used to predict WHEN one will go SPLAT. Evolution is NOT a science, neither is politics or economics.
Wow , so much to respond to – I’ll begin with this:
“Unfortunately, most of our society still accepts the notion that a religious education can and should be wholly separated from all other aspects of a child’s education.”
Most? Really. What “scientific fact” is used to “prove” this?
Moving on . . .
I think I failed to communicate here. The point I am making is that government schools preach the non-fact that humans evolved from something other than humans. There isn’t any proof of this, but there are facts that are used to make such a conclusion.
My point is the faith in science is actually a ‘religion’ to many – replacing faith in God with faith in Science – and by extension – faith in Human “knowledge”, not “spiritual” knowledge.
Faith is the belief in something that cannot be seen – or known (proven).
We transition from faith to Knowledge when we can prove or witness something – it becomes a “fact” – or at least what we humans have defined as being a “fact”.
Therefore, I understand that today government schools teach faith in humanist “science”, but they will not “educate” students that science is producing one set of “beliefs”, while various religions have different “theories” as to the origin of humans; both the theory of human evolution and theory of divine creation being a set of beliefs. Neither being “proven” as a “scientific fact”.
So, from the 30,000 foot level what we now witness is that for many that follow the religion of human secularism, “science” has morphed into a faith (and it now takes on the trappings of a religion). Folks, secular humanist worship “science”. One reality “science” has proven is that over the years “science” has proclaimed many “facts” that later are “proven” to have been incorrect.
Interesting.
Folks, theories are theories, they are not “fact”. Let’s appreciate that many “facts” are not really “truth”. And no “scientific fact” exists to refute the existence of God.
But “science” is so clever, it places all “facts” in a man-made box, using man-made “rules” and using the rules of within the bounds of the physical known world as a foundation for passing judgment on that which does not exist in our physical, known world – that being the spiritual realm. From this set of “scientific rules” faith in God is automatically ruled out – because it cannot be “proven” using the rules/box humans have created – and then called “science”.
Folks, the best fisherman in the world can fish in a pond devoid of fish, and will not catch fish.
The “pond” created by “science” is devoid of God because the spiritual realm cannot be measured in a physical, earthy sense. Like I said, very clever.
Me? I believe in God. I witness God’s majesty everyday – everywhere. To me, those of you reading this are “proof” that God exists. God breathed life into each of you. Folks, it is in how you comprehend what you are seeing that frames your beliefs. I have come to appreciate that “science” is nothing more than human’s discovery and knowledge of what God has created.
I find such eloquence in my appreciation that one day “science” will “discover” God – how deliciously ironic. Each day we dig deeper into the complex eloquence of the design of our physical and intellectual realities, the greater appreciation for God I have.
Folks, “truth” will prevail – despite the best efforts of those that hope otherwise.
Using the same scientific “rules” (i.e. “box”) humans have created to define “scientific proofs” to believe that humans evolved from something non-human – is an act of faith, passed off in the trappings of the humanist’s religion of “science”.
So, I propose that the wisest path to follow for government schools is to pass onto their students the knowledge of the various theories of creation, and teaching that humans evolved from non-humans is moved out of the “science” curriculum, and into the study of societal beliefs.
Because, at the end of the day, it is a “scientific fact” that many people believe in God. Teaching that “fact” is no less important than teaching faith in the theory that God did not create humans in his own image. Or in teaching the religion based on the man-made process of accepting or rejecting “knowledge” based on the man-make “rules” (i.e. “box”) of “science”.
Reid Greenmun — Try to keep in mind that we are largely on the same side of this issue. To allow parents to exercise their right to pass on to their children their religious beliefs, I advocate school choice. I do not think the government should take people’s money away from them and demand that that money be spent on government owned and operated schools. Because such schools too easily become indoctrination centers, this is akin to putting the fox in charge of the hen house.
Consider how we justify public ownership and operation of schools. Those in favor the public schools justify their position by stating that people who want to educate their children their own way can spend their own money. That is nice, but if that is the case, why do these same people need other people’s money? Why should others pay for both the education of their children and other peoples’ children. Are the children attending the public schools impoverished? Are we being taxed to support public schools just for the impoverished? That obviously is not the case. We are in fact being taxed to support the “majority” conception of education.
Unfortunately, the public school system is still supported by the majority. Thus I made the statement you quoted. While the use of education vouchers is slowly gaining support, we still have an uphill battle. What is the use in pretending otherwise?
The “faith” in science that most people have comes largely from the fact science is poorly taught. Science is largely a system for discovering and modeling cause and effect relationships. What we call “scientific understanding” is knowing the most efficient procedures to produce desired effect(s). People have “faith” in science simply because they accept the word of experts who have studied science enough to gain sufficient “understanding” produce reproducible results.
The ability to produce reproducible results is not a trivial issue. This is why some of our scientific knowledge is considered more exact and reliable than other aspects. Some scientific theories do not lend themselves to proper testing. Without the possibility of reproducing evolution, for example, the Theory of Evolution remains merely a theory, a somewhat reasonable deduction based upon forensic studies of the matter.
The study of religion is important because it helps to put scientific knowledge into its proper context. With some knowledge of religion, most people realize that science does not have the proper tools to answer the ultimate questions:
(1) Why do I exist?
(2) What is the purpose of my life?
(3) What happens to people after they die?
(4) What will happen to me after I die?
Without the ability to deal with such questions, mere scientific knowledge cannot adequately address the subject of ethics. Given that limitation, it is both dangerous and irresponsible to teach children science without at the same time insisting they study religion. Yet that is exactly with the public school system insists upon doing.
I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and will be starting a movement to have the tenants of my beliefs taught in all public schools. In fact we will be receiving financing for our “think tank” in the near future and with our millions of converts we will in a very organized way begin pressuring every school district. We are prepared to go all the way to the Supreme Court because the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Ways and Values of the Flying Spaghetti Monster are vital to the intentions of the Founding Fathers (thus their use of the word “Creator”.)
Tom, Okay … I’ll take you word for it – but I don’t really see how this:
– – – “Unfortunately, most of our society still accepts the notion that a religious education can and should be wholly separated from all other aspects of a child’s education.”
Means the same thing as this:
– – – “We are in fact being taxed to support the “majority” conception of education.
– – – Unfortunately, the public school system is still supported by the majority. Thus I made the statement you quoted. “
The first comment staes as a fact that “most” members of our “society” support removing any education related to religion from pour government schools.
The second seems to imply that “most” means those that support having taxpayer funded public schools???
Tom, here we have agreement: You wrote:
– – -“Without the ability to deal with such questions, mere scientific knowledge cannot adequately address the subject of ethics. Given that limitation, it is both dangerous and irresponsible to teach children science without at the same time insisting they study religion. Yet that is exactly with the public school system insists upon doing.”
I would simply add that teaching that humans are not made in the image of God – from a “scientific point of view” is to actually teach students that the teachings of the Christain faith are incorrect.
As to the notion of funding government schools and of school vouchers.
Again, you and I agree.
If a family decides that the government school is failing to teach their children adequately – or that their children are being taught things the parents do not agree with, then of course the taxpayer should have the right to reject the government school and select another option for educating their children. And – they should not be forced to pay for the government school they decided they did not wish to use.
Another ‘yawn’ lame argument:
. . . Flying Spaghetti Monsters
Sure, all religions are “equal” – thus none should be any more respected than any other . . .
It is my understanding that more people have a belief in Jesus Christ and the Christain faith than any other faith, to include Muslim, or no faith in God.
Counter: Yes, and they all believed the earth was flat once too – and they were wrong!
Counter: Yes, but “scientifically” speaking, the truths revealsed in the Christain holy scriptures can be the one truth – it is within the realm of possibilities.
Counter: Yeah … well so it my bogus ” Flying Spaghetti Monster”.
Counter: Yeah, so it the notion that humans ‘evolved’ from somthing other than humans.
Counter: um … well … there’s a lot of scientific evidence to suggest that humans evolved from non-humans.
Counter: The is a lot of historical evidence documenting spiritual encounters that prove Jesus was the Son of God.
Counter: You can’t use the Bible as “proof”. It was written by humans.
Counter: And who wrote the “science” that documents the ‘evidence” of human evolution?
Counter: Um … hey, this is getting us no where.
Counter: Not really. But it does reveal that teaching AMY ideas of the origin of humans is only speculation – and to believe one idea over another is an act of faith.
Thus, using “logic” – it follows that those that do not believ in teaching “faith” in government schools must also agree that teaching the origin of humans is based on “evolution” from non-humans should not be taught either.
Counter: But one is teaching (ahh-ahh Angel choir sings in background) Science – the others are teaching (sound of a rasberry in background) – – religion!!!!
Gasp, the horror!!!
. . . and so it goes . . . as Sony & Cher once sang long ago . . .“… and the beat goes on . .
Reid Greenmun — The apparent incongruity of my statements is easily explained. Have you ever considered the old adage about wanting your cake and eating it too? People do want to have their cake and eat it too. We do it all the time.
So they can ensure conformity to some nebulous standard (i.e., to keep extremists from getting hold of “their” money), people want a public school system. At the same time, people want religious freedom, and they want prayer in the public schools. Without paying much attention to it, they also want an innovative public school system, one that does a good job and make EVERYBODY happy.
It is just the sort of nonsense above that leads private industry to say: “The customer is always right.” So long as the customer is willing to pay the bill, the customer is right. Hence the cost of public education keeps going up and up and up…..
This sort of nonsense is also the reason why we should keep government as small as possible. If people want to have their cake and eat it too, they should spend their own money.