Violence.
We live in a civilized society, one that used to be the example for the world. Ours was a society that disagreed without being disagreeable. Ours was a society where freedom of speech was tampered by simple common decency.
It seems no more.
It seems that, rather than lead the way, we have decided to follow, engaging in behavior that is generally reserved for third-world countries.
Is this what America has come to?
I don’t really care who did what first. I don’t care whether the target is a Republican or a Democrat, black or white, Christian or Jewish.
This has to stop.
Now.
Before someone really gets hurt.
Because if someone gets hurt, the genie is out of the bottle. And we are all at risk.
We are in this together. Violence against one is violence against us all.
Stop it.
VIVIAN J. PAIGE | All Politics is Local 
I lay some of this at the feet of some members of the media, who has attempted to portray opponents of health care as racist. I find this to be offensive. I believe the opposition to this bill lies in the fact that many people, including myself, don’t think that now is the time to add new huge entitlements to our already overburdened system. Many of the provisions in the bill stink, to boot. Had President Obama come in with the smaller reforms that most agree on, and really led an effort to reduce the deficit ( a la Bill Clinton ), instead of passing on huge debts to our children ( how selfish of us ), he would have 80% plus support from the people ( leaving out the 10% extremists on either side ). It is a shame the President missed this opportunity.
Just out of curiosity: by what method do you think GOP members of Congress would have been able to sign onto the health care bill after flinging all sorts of completely false accusations against it, such as Sarah Palin’s death panel myth? How does Chuck Grassley go to his constituents and say “Alright, so I did say back in 2009 that Democrats wanted to kill grandma, but now I want to broker a deal with them?”
There was never going to be any chance to build a bridge across the aisle. Republicans painted themselves so deep into the corner with their rhetoric that neither side could possibly reach the other.
The whole point of Vivian’s message is that it doesn’t matter who’s the blame. Some individuals and groups have crossed the line from civil disagreement to physical violence. They paint themselves as true patriots. But what they’re really acting like is immature children acting out because they know of no other ways of expressing themselves.
No matter where you are on the issues, this kind of behavior tells us and the world that America is not the place it claims to be, and that in some circles we’re no better than the world’s worst anarchy.
Violence of this kind demeans us all. Further, history shows us that it has always been on the side of losers.
The thing, Lenny, is that aside from the obvious health benefits, the CBO believes the health care reform act will in fact reduce the deficit over time.
And even if it didn’t, the nation’s health care burden is a runaway train of genuine financial disaster racing down the track towards us, carrying costs and deficits beyond imagination.
So doing nothing was not an option. Nor was taking lowest common denominator baby steps enough to do any good or slow the train.
I believe the Republicans made it amply clear that they did not intend to support ANY Democratic proposals for health care reform. This is especially ironic given the Republican Party’s historic advocacy–by everyone from Richard Nixon to Mitt Romney and Scott Brown–of some of the most basic elements of this reform. In the case of Romney and Brown, both approved the Massachusetts plan which is working well and for far less cost than predicted. Taken in the whole, this two-faced behavior tells me, at least, that Republicans leaders must think their followers are pretty dumb and forgetful. Just how respectful is that?
As for “most Americans,” I can tell you with confidence that most Americans are, and have been for many years, in favor of 95% of the elements of this new health care act. Even conservatives. I and others did national research for the Clinton Administration that proved this beyond question.New research shows that this is still the case.
Republicans leaders did their own research. They knew it, too. This is why they knew their only way to gain political advantage was to divert attention away from the its benefits and, in the case of the Clinton Administration, pin the blame on a strong woman (Hillary)and, in the case of Obama, blame it on another strong woman (Pelosi), make sometimes not so indirect racists remarks about the president that support the fears of their base and paint the whole thing as “socialism.”
Shameful, the whole lot of it.
“The whole point of Vivian’s message is that it doesn’t matter who’s the blame.”
It doesn’t matter, but then you proceed to blame Republicans for not being Democrats.
Principles matter. When people are unprincipled, they will resort to lies and violence. That is the problem.
Government-run health care is unconstitutional. Therefore, government-run health care is unprincipled.
The cost of government-run health care, Medicare and Medicaid, cannot be controlled — except by rationing. Politicians focus on politics, not customer service. In a government-run system, customers have too little leverage. Because taxpayers, not customers, pay the bill, politicians already have our money. More government-run health care will just make a bad situation, incessant political haggling, worse.
Both the Tea Party demonstrations and polls indicate that the public does not want Obamacare. That is why no Republican, not even one, voted for Obamacare. That is also why Democrats had to resort to stinking backroom deals to pass the bill.
Now Democrats have to defend the reeking mess. So what do they do? After doing so much violence to our Constitution and political processes, they call for an end to PHYSICAL violence. What nonsense!
John Q. Citizen does not intend to kill any Democrats. He will vote the dishonest fools out of office. When most of us pay our own bills, why should any of us want a politician making health care choices for us?
Yes, the Federal Government does have a role. That role is regulating interstate commerce. Obamacare goes well beyond regulation. To consummate their visions of Utopia, the Democrats want to run whole show. Stupid!
Well said.
The violence results in third world countries is because politics is a winner take all system there. The government is involved in all aspects of wealth building and life in general.
Reduce the size, scope, and power of centralized government, bring back civil discussion, remove the arrogance, and the violence goes away.
In other words, fix your mostly-imaginary problems, and you won’t keep encouraging violence?
Sure, makes sense to me.
I assume your crytic statement refers to the current threats of violence spurred by the national republican leadership,to stir up hell among their followers in the Tea Party and extreme factions of the GOP. I have a fear that somebody from one of those communities is going to commit an action of violene which will wake us all up. I think the republican leadership, in their efforts to weaken President Obama and the Democrats, through fear and lies, should take pause and realize that what they say directly or not may influence one of their followers to do something stupid.
Sorry for the delay in posting your comment.
Actually, I was thinking about all of the threats of violence.
Let’s try to behave as Martin Luther King Jr taught us. We can argue, march, sit-in, protest, sign petitions, vote. But we get rid of the snark, the skewer, violence or subtle threat of violence. We withdraw our support from those using words, actions, deeds that divide. We stop acting like children, laying blame and “you started it!”
“First they came …” is a popular poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group. In Niemöller’s first utterance of it, in a January 6, 1946 speech before representatives of the Confessing Church in Frankfurt, it went (in German):[1]
“THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.
THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.
THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
THEN THEY CAME for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.
THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.”
One of the quotes I keep on my favorite quotes page. 😉
Lenny,
Just from an observation standpoint how come we never see any Latino’s, African Americans, or any other minority groups involved in the protests against health care. It is always the same- white, mostly men in their middle ages with a few white women thrown in.For the media to wonder whether there is a tint of racism in these groups is understandable considering who attends the events. As always both sides need to relax and if the opportunity arises for the Republicans to now take health care away from people then go for it but stop the violence by everyone.
cargosquid hit the nail on the head. You do not want violence? Then support limited government. Let the People retain the freedom and liberty to run their own lives.
Because its power rests principally upon the use of force, government can either be a tool we use to protect our rights or to enslave others. Government is not much good for anything else. Because everyone has his own notion of Utopia, we cannot use government to create Utopia. Whose Utopia? We cannot decide. We just argue. Eventually that arguement leads to violence.
The Founders laid out the solution in the Constitution. They created a limited government. They also created a nation of laws, not men. Because we have ignored the Constitution, we have lost respect for the law and substituted charisma. So ordinary citizens are becoming afraid, and greedy citizens now see government as an easy way to appropriate the property and rights of others.
You want peace? Read the Constitution, promote limited government, and stand for public official who obey their oath of office.
Well said, Vivian. Amen.
genemagruder, by your reasoning anytime a group of people get together that are of the same skin tone they are inherently racist. I do not accept this premise. As I have never been to a tea party gathering, I cannot comment on the exact racial or gender compostition of the crowd. Whatever their makeup, I continue to believe that their message is about the actions of their government, and not the color of anyone’s skin. Has Obama’s approval rating dropped by 30 points in less than a year because people suddenly discovered he was a bit darker than them? I don’t believe that for a second. Huge spending programs at a time we should be frugal is what this is all about, IMHO.
Lenny I never implied that at all. I said it was rational for the PRESS to consider if there is a racist side to the movement. You implied that somehow they shouldn’t investigate if this was part of the movement. Freedom of the Press is also a constitutional right. You certainly can comment on the makeup because they put the crowds on TV and the makeup of the crowd is clear to all viewers. It is like saying you cannot comment on the makeup of the House of Representatives and Senate when the President is doing the State of the Union speech. Of course you can, look to the right side of the room when they pan out and you know what the makeup of the Congress is right now. It is pretty plain to me who is leading the Republicans and the Teaparty movement.
I am a caucasion male but pictures are pictures.
excuse the link, but it’s on topic:
tohttp://www.vagazette.com/articles/2010/03/30/news/doc4b6c51191240a051044164.txt
This is an issue where both sides have hyped the stakes. Despite boasting by Democrats, this is a modest refrom to health insurace rules, not what we really need, a single-payer system. And despite Republioan hype puposel designed to inflame the dumbest 1/3 of the country, it’s not the end of the world as we know it.
“how come we never see any Latino’s, African Americans, or any other minority groups involved in the protests against health care”
Because, as a general rule, 90% of those minority groups are Democrats, and support socialized medicine and government generally. Now, Blacks and Hispanics are each about 14% of the population. So if they turn out in equivalent numbers to Caucasians, then only 2.8% of the Tea Party protesters will be Black or Hispanic.
Now to address the original post. I am afraid I cannot agree with the premise. From Shays’ Rebellion, before our Constitution was written, to 1960’s riots, we have had violence as political protest. In most every case, it is a desperate bid to be heard. “Desperate” is the key word there. Although many certainly joined the 1960s riots for fun, the riots were born of protest and needing to be heard by those who refused to listen to calm rationality.
We try to have calm, rational discussions, but our concerns are dismissed as “imaginary problems,” and our elected officials nod in agreement and vote contrarywise. How, then, do we make people listen?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/25/AR2009042501336.html?hpid=topnews
This is getting ridiculous, and I apologize. I posted those two comments back-to-back, and the one came up as Warren (my name) and the other came up a narceleb, my gmail handle. ARGGG!!
Maybe you realize that hey, our problems just might be imaginary. You know, like the imaginary gov’t takeover of 1/6th of the economy, imaginary gov’t coming to take your guns away, or imaginary racist taxes.
The only thing that’s not imaginary is the rank stupidity of the people getting stirred up by it (unlike, say, the faked stupidity of the people doing the stirring).
MB – I bet you are a smart guy. It is a shame you spend so much exercising your intellect by insulting people. Did you prove cargosquid or Warren/Narceleb wrong. No. You just proved how rude you can be.
Whatever we do sets an example for others. Is this the example you want set for others? Consider the following observations:
1. If you want anyone to consider you reasonable, it helps to behave as if you are reasonable.
2. Imitation is the finest form of flattery. If you actually achieve success by being rude enough to chase others from the public square, you will be imitated. In fact, others will be happy to escalate beyond a verbal or written assault. If being rude works, then being violent should work even better.
What I proved, you hateful bigot, is nothing more than how little respect I have for people’s complaints about imaginary problems (much like your bull@!$% Family Alliance project). The problem isn’t that people like me are too rude, but that we’ve given you and yours too much time. If someone truly believes that this last bill is a massive government takeover of healthcare, they’ve established themselves as operating in some area beyond facts. I don’t care to go down that rabbit-hole, I don’t think it serves the public discourse for us to credit it with the least bit of respectability.
MB – So long as this is a republic, what you do with yourself is your own business. The problem with the “health care” bill is that people who don’t care want to run the lives of other people. And that is the problem.
As you said: “The problem isn’t that people like me are too rude, but that we’ve given you and yours too much time.” You don’t want to give Conservatives the time of day. I am okay with that, but I don’t want people with that attitude determining the health care choices — or trying to run the lives — of my friends, my family, or myself.
Thanks for your encouragement.
Go ahead, New “Conservative”, go Galt. You want to opt out of society? Have at it. Turn off your power, stop driving on the roads, pull your kids out of schools, and don’t ever think about relying on a contract enforceable in court. When you’ve done that, maybe I’ll take you seriously.
Otherwise, grow up, realize that the provisions of the health care bill aren’t going to “run the lives of other people”, and try the novel approach of sorting out problems in good faith.
If you’re offended by my lack of interest in indulging stupidity, try bringing something else besides stupidity to the table.
It seems, MB, that you are imagining powers of Congress that the Constitution does not give it. Can you take any part of this law and show how it falls under one of the specific, enumerated powers of Congress granted by the Constitution?
Yes. If you need an explanation, I invite you to examine the jurisprudence of the United States Supreme Court.
It’s real simple, MB. Quote a passage from the law, any one you like. Then quote any one of Congress’s specific, enumerated powers in the Constitution, and show how the first falls under the second.
Why is that too hard for you?
Warren – MB will not answer your question. He is not stupid. He knows the Constitution does not authorize anything even remotely like the health care bill. I think MB believes admitting the obvious would weaken his argument. There are still a few young people who still believe the Constitution is a “living document,” but MB is not that stupid. No. MB’s problem is that what he wants is more important to him than the Constitution.
What does MB want? Given his behavior I suspect he wants to punish some people.
Check out this post, http://citizentom.com/2010/04/06/defining-the-culture-war-%e2%80%93-part-2/. Is it that hard to explain foolishness of the health care bill? No. The problem is getting people to act upon what they already know is true. When we want to blame someone else for our troubles –when we want power over others — we can be quite hateful and spiteful.
As usual, Tom is in the business of making up things with the confidence of a charlatan.
I’ve pointed you, Warren, to the most comprehensive explanation you could hope for. Similarly, if you asked me to prove to you that the Sun did not orbit around Earth, I wouldn’t bother to explain the hundreds of years of science behind it. I’d simply say “Copernicus.” And just as similarly, Tom would probably take a cue from his imaginary friend and say “See! He can’t prove it! He’s afraid of the truth!”
And similarly (see the pattern here?), Tom would be just as mistaken and ridiculous as he and OFL and FamilyAllianceOnline are. I know the current vogue is to yell “arrogance!” in response to something like that. And I guess, when you’ve been reduced to lying and reliance upon ignorance for support of your goals, that’s as good an approach as any. But again, it’s time to grow the hell up and participate in society in a responsible manner.
Warren – Carefully note who is desperate. MB seeks to change the subject from the Constitution to a more complex subject, astronomy. This form of debate involves clouding the issue with a smokescreen.
We each can read the Constitution, a plainly written document and understand what the Founders intended. And when in doubt, we can read the Federalist Papers. If MB cannot give an answer about it, it is because he does not want to do so.
Astronomy is somewhat more complex than the Constitution. So perhaps the subject is beyond MB’s knowledge. I suspect he hopes it is beyond our own.
How can we tell the earth orbits around the sun? Let’s humor MB by providing him an answer. The answer to his question begin with years of careful observation. What was the first clue? As a year passes, the nighttime sky changes. The star patterns in spring, summer, fall and winter differ. Yet year after year, we see the same patterns predictably repeat themselves. This repetition accords with the earth revolving around the sun.
Nonetheless, the yearly cycle of the nighttime sky by itself did not solve the riddle. To understand what they were seeing, our forebears needed the telescope. With the invention of the telescope, they could see moons revolving around other planets, the strange rogues in the night time sky. Moreover, they began to realize the planet were close and the stars faraway. Eventually, someone conceived the notion that we reside upon a planet. Finally, with Newton’s calculus, astronomers were able to predict the paths of the planets, including our own.
Do you want to learn calculus? It really is not that much more difficult than learning about the Constitution. Unfortunately, math presents the same problem as the Constitution. If you don’t obey the rules, you cannot get the right answer — unless, of course, your teacher is a Liberal Democrat. 😉
Actually, it was Kepler, not Newton. And Kepler established his theory based on the years of precise observations made by Tycho Brahe. Newton formulated his theory of inverse-square gravity later, and that theory conformed with Kepler’s Laws of Orbital Motion.
Warren – Kepler most certainly had a key role.
What I think we have here is an example of true dialogue. That is what we are missing from MB.
Newton is usually given credit for inventing calculus, and his contributions made the math accurate. Kepler, however, was the first to observe that the motion of a planet around the sun is an ellipse. So yes, I should have given him due credit.
A “key role,” indeed!
It was Kepler’s Laws, specifically the ellipse with one focus on the orbited body, and the “equal area in equal time” law, that Newton used (along with the Calculus) to prove inverse-square gravity.
Warren – LOL! Agreed. Newton depended upon Kepler’s accomplishments as well as those of others. He put it this way.
“If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.” — Isaac Newton
Johannes Kepler was definitely one of Newton’s giants.
Vivian,
I’m with you, and not just in politics, of course. I’m tired of a culture that glorifies violence, disrespects the young and the old, and is retreating into hours of daily interaction with our electronics. We are losing touch with our humanity, and we must regain the lost ground. Today’s paper said that child abuse-related fatalities is up. Yesterday’s paper had an article about a teen who killed herself because of being bullied.
We must regain the lost ground.
Thank you for your post on this.